So. Is it a cult? Technically, no. But, if it walks like cult, talks like a cult, and preys on people like a cult, it just might be Landmark.
Everyone told me not to go.
“It’s a cult, Sarah. Don’t get sucked in!”
“The Landmark Forum? It’s like ‘Scientology Light.’ Run the opposite direction!”
I’d just begun a trial separation from my husband. I was heartbroken, confused and vulnerable. That’s when my good friend, Ed, a fantastically positive, well-put-together human being, told me emphatically that The Landmark Forum had changed his life and invited me to a free seminar.
Eager, I went online to check it out, and began to worry.
On the net, opinions and experiences ran the gamut. There were warnings against Landmark, video testimonials about how-Landmark-saved-my-life, letters of both support and condemnation from psychologists, priests and university scholars.
I had other friends who all but begged me not to go, citing it as destructive and dangerous. Now, I was intrigued. Such a range of reactions and emotions! I had to find out for myself.
Still, something didn’t feel right. On the day of the free seminar, I had a sinking feeling deep in my gut. Don’t go. But I’d told Ed I would see him there and felt bad bowing out. I explained my conflicted feelings to another friend who advised me to “Go, just don’t part with any money.”
Huh. Why would I part with any money?
I left late (subconsciously on purpose? Hoping it would be half over when I arrived?) and drove with trepidation to the location, a crappy hotel by the airport.
There, I was greeted by what seemed like an endless supply of grinning volunteers. Each name-tagged little helper gushed how happy they were to see me. After tacking a nametag across my chest, they ushered me into a dank, depressing ballroom. Heavy draperies kept out the light of a gorgeous California day.
On stage, people stood in line to give witness to how Landmark changed their lives. I thought it would be over — I was almost an hour late — but it was nowhere near over, and would go on another two hours.
Somehow, despite my skepticism, halfway through I ended up sobbing my marital sadness to the two Landmark women with whom I was put into a small group. And by the end of the afternoon, I had written a check for $300 (merely a deposit) and registered for the course.
I know.
By the time I got back on the highway, I regretted it. What the hell was that? I asked myself aloud. I called to get a refund.
At first, the Landmark rep on the phone acted as if a refund was no problem. Great, I thought. That was easy. But when she smoothly launched into a series of circular questions, I didn’t have a chance.
“Mmm, this refund, let’s talk about this. Why do you feel this way? What could you be resisting in your life? What if ‘I want my money back’ is just a story you are telling yourself?”
Hm. Gosh. Never thought if it that way.
And she seemed so nice. So caring. I said I’d think about it and hung up.
Every single day for the next month, I was barraged with phone calls and messages from Landmark. It was like having a collection agent who also needed to buy crack from you. I had been willing to consider doing the course, but now I was pissed.
The phone rang yet again. I saw the Landmark name (I had labeled it on my phone as a warning to screen the call) and picked up. This time I would give them a piece of my mind!
Of course, the Landmark rep, “Paul,” wasn’t having any of it.
“Sarah, can you honestly say you are where you want to be in your life?”
Uh, well.
“What is really going on here? What are you resisting?”
Apparently, “resisting,” as they labeled my decision to get my money back, was proof of how much I needed their help. You know, the help I needed to stop resisting THEM. Get it?
“I just want a refund,” I stumbled, somehow getting roped back into another big ass, circular conversation. They’re really good at that.
After almost 20 minutes on the phone it was clear I wasn’t getting my deposit back. Paul “reframed” it for me: essentially I could lose the $300 or pony up the additional $200 and just see what the fuss was all about.
Even then, as I was agreeing to pay the balance, I could feel my heart pounding, stuffing down a little voice that said, This isn’t right. Don’t go.
“All righty!” Paul interrupted my inner monologue. “So the total on your Visa will be…” he slowed down. “Oooh, Sarah,” I could hear him inhale through his teeth, “It looks like since you registered last summer, but didn’t complete the forum, we can’t honor your deposit.”
What?
“And, it looks like the price of the course has gone up since you registered.”
“Seriously?” I balked.
“I hear you, Sarah, but I want you to be open to the possibilities that lay ahead for you.”
I didn’t feel open to new possibilities. I felt taken advantage of, swindled, even a little bullied. But bullied in a really nice way.
As the seminar weekend approached, the feeling in the pit of my stomach returned. But I had spent the money. I was going. The schedule was as follows: Friday 10am-Midnight, Saturday 10am-Midnight, Sunday 10am-Midnight.
The leader, a stern, non-nonsense woman I’ll call Chris, explained the contract we must all agree to: no use of alcohol, drugs. No problem. I agree.
They went on to reject the use of coffee, caffeine, painkillers like Advil, and snacks. Coffee? Snacks? Tylenol?
Also, there would be very limited breaks. As in one meal break for the 13-hour day. I didn’t think this was a big deal until I’d been sitting for four hours in a hot room in a stiff row of people in a very uncomfortable chair. One person got up after about an hour, presumably for the bathroom, and Chris made quick work of explaining all the reasons this was not okay. The tone was set: You followed the schedule; you did not veer from the group.
Later, after spotting a few travel mugs of coffee in the audience and more unofficial bathroom breaks, Chris exploded.
“You can’t control yourselves? Geez, you’re like babies here whining about going to the bathroom and having your snacks.” She mocked us in a high-pitched voice. Then, she got very serious.
“You get up and take a break? Don’t blame me if come Sunday everyone else ‘gets it’ and you don’t. I can’t guarantee the transformation that will happen Sunday at 5pm unless you are here and present every second.”
Within the first hour of the seminar we were pressured to take the $800 “advanced course.” To push us along, the drones in the back of the room came up and gave testimonials like “I was like you once! Skeptical, unsure.”
I look around the room. Does anyone else see what’s going on here? A few do — we make eye contact and quickly look away before the drones can see us connecting and possibly staging a rebellion.
Nametags: They were very strict about them. I mean hardcore. You had to have your nametag on and in view at all times. They were collected anytime you left the room. Presumably to keep tabs on who had returned (or were late returning) and who had not. It was weird.
Also within the first few hours, we were “challenged” to “powerfully enroll our friends and family in the possibilities Landmark is giving you!” This would mean using the few and far between breaks we did have to call our friends and “get complete” with them. Then we were supposed to bring them Sunday night to our own “completion” where they could hear about our transformative weekend (and pay their own $300 deposit).
One woman raised her hand.
She was handed a microphone, and was thus allowed to speak. “I’m sorry,” she started, her voice wobbling in preliminary apology, “but do we have to tell them about Landmark? All of this feels like a big commercial for Landmark.”
By the time Chris was done with her, this young woman had shrunk about two inches and said, “I guess I wasn’t seeing the possibilities,” she smiled hopefully, “Thank you.”
Cheers and applause broke out. “Yes! Look at that, people! She just grew tenfold!”
But, not everyone was buying it. A man raised his hand. I’d noticed this man before because it seemed whenever I was sighing or looking askance he was doing the same thing.
In a very reasonable, professional manner, he raised his hand and said, “Excuse me. I’ve been here for a little over three hours now. And the only thing I’ve heard is how I should sign up and pay for more Landmark classes.”
A small wave of nods rippled across the room.
In a roller coaster two minutes, Chris lauded the man for his honesty, encouraging others who felt this way to show themselves. Then she went in for the kill, spinning it around so anyone who questioned the program or its tactics was “resisting.”
The second day, the man expressed the same feeling. This time, the mic was ripped out of his hand, campaign manager style, “We are not discussing that right now!” Chris snapped
On the third day he was “asked” to leave.
All of those things were freaky, but none truly scared me until we go to this rule:
NO WRITING.
This was when the little hairs on the back of my neck came to attention. Writing, whether it’s journaling, taking notes, even just having a pen in my hand, is how I process the world.
When I expressed my concern over this, I was used as an example of someone who is clearly resisting the work by choosing not to follow the rules. Others around me, who only moments before had echoed my feelings, now clammed up. They wouldn’t even meet my gaze.
So, after we’d all been given our East German Stasi cards — oops, I mean our nametags — we were reminded that if someone is doing something they’re not supposed to (taking notes, taking unofficial breaks), you say something. Hold them accountable.
Yes, we were asked to police our neighbors.
About15 minutes after this “reminder,” the woman next to me tapped me hard on my arm. “Yes?” I looked up, assuming she wanted to borrow something or ask for a piece of gum.
“No writing!” she said, and waved her finger back and forth in my face.
I almost stabbed her with my Bic Roller Gel.
I nearly walked out so many times, usually during the abusive interactions between the leader and whatever emotionally wracked person onstage. These were serious emotional breakdowns being handled in five-minute increments by this Landmark leader. Not a well-trained, experienced therapist in a safe environment but an arrogant, would-be dictator who egged on these breakdowns, gave them a quickie “tool” to get over their childhood trauma, and moved right along to the next person.
There were first-time revelations of childhood molestations, my-father-murdered-my-mother divulgements, I-think-I’m-gay moments. The words that best sum up Landmark’s catch-and-release handling of these fragile situations are dangerous and irresponsible.
I’ve done self-help work. I’m an actor, for Christ’s sake! Introspection and being alone on stage is what we do! So I asked questions in response to “the work” and was struck down, humiliated and branded “uncoachable.”
Chris mocked me, “Oh, you have questions? You’re questioning me? How long have you been leading the Forum? Do you think I know a thing or two more than you about it?” I could literally hear cackles from various part of the audience. It was fucking Animal Farm in there.
It went on like this as I watched others get worked over. It was abusive, demeaning. Yet, people kept coming back for more!
The only reasonable explanation is Stockholm Syndrome. You are trapped like sardines in rows with random people, after hours without food or daylight, put into a high-pressure emotional situation, and told the only way out of the emotional basket-case-ness that they have instigated, is for you to pay for and take more of their seminars. (And to “powerfully enroll others to do the same.”)
Looking back, I can’t believe I stayed as long as I did. I suspect some people stay out of curiosity, a wanting-to-get-your-moneys worth feeling.
I might have stayed even longer but then I heard this: Everything in your life is your fault, including your rape.
They were SUCH assholes to me onstage after I’d bared my soul, and talked about everything from being raped to my husband never wanting to have sex with me. The upshot was essentially, Guess what, bitch? It’s all your fault!
Streams of people came up to me after I got up to do “the work” (translation: get emotionally eviscerated/abused in public).
“The way she talked to you up there made me sick.”
“After witnessing that, I don’t think I can come back for another day.”
“That was unconscionable.”
Yet, they all stayed. Why? Like a crowd around a wagon back medicine show, they were desperate to see this “transformation” they had been promised (over and over again) all weekend. (“Don’t leave! You are this close to “getting” it.)
That was Saturday night. I could have just gone home and not returned for the third day, but something in me woke up. That pit in my stomach? It was on fire. And it wasn’t going to go quietly. I had to make a statement.
As homework the night of Day 2, we were supposed to write a letter to someone we’ve “been inauthentic with.”
I went home and wrote out three pages on a legal pad. I returned bright and early Sunday morning, on time and sitting in my seat (lest I be scolded) like all the other good little sheep.
When it was my turn, I went up to the microphone and began to read:
“Dear, Sarah — I realize now I have been inauthentic with you.” I could feel sympathetic nods up and down from the crowd. I continued.
“When I first heard about Landmark Forum, I had this terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach. An instinct. A sense of dread. I ignored my inner voice. I let myself look past all the unethical business practices, the high-pressure sales tactics, the abusive, emotional manipulation –”
“– Turn off her mic! Turn off her mic!” Chris shouted, her arms raised arms up and down like a stiff Henny Penny, and the drones scurried do her bidding.
A Mack truck couldn’t stop me. I didn’t need a microphone, just my own authentic voice. The drones went berserk, buzzing around in the back, bumping into each other over the sound equipment. Someone finally just ripped the cord out of the wall.
Chris raced toward me. She tried to shuffle me offstage — physically. I calmly (maybe too calmly) told her not to touch me. The audience gasped. Gasped! As if I had done something to HER! Wow, they were goners.
I went on with my letter.
She interrupted, shouting, “What do you want? Do you want a refund?”
I said, “Hell, yes!” and then got the hell off stage.
Three people booed me. Yes, BOOED ME. Another three came to the back of the room to shake my hand, clap me on the back, and tell me that I had just articulated everything they were thinking. Soon enough, though, the drones broke up the conversation.
“I have to ask you to stop this conversation because you are just creating another ‘racket,’” which is Landmark-speak for “a persistent complaint with someone or something that leads you into a habitual way of being, thinking, feeling, or acting.”
“See?” I said to the three would-be-defectors. You take issue with something Landmarkian? You are labeled as having a “racket,” “resisting,” or — my personal favorite — being “uncoachable.”
So. Is it a cult? Technically, no. But, if it walks like cult, talks like a cult, and preys on people like a cult, it just might be Landmark. If this is what people call “Scientology light,” I’d hate the get anywhere near the real thing.
I have since discovered that a couple of my friends have actually done the basic Landmark Forum. I still don’t understand quite how they couldn’t see through all the mindfucking-disguised-as-enlightenment, deceptive business practices, Stockholm Syndrome-y seminars or the constant, hard-sells to get more involved.
That said, if they got something positive out of it, I am truly glad for them. (And a little in awe.)
One of them asked me, hopefully, “But, Sarah, you must have learned something from it?”
I thought for a moment. “Yes,” I said. “I learned that I should trust my instincts.” Like the time my gut told me, “Sarah, run fast. It’s totally a cult.”
I was so absorbed by your story, and by the time you got to your epic final speech I just wanted to applaud. It takes a ton of courage to stand up against a crowd, period, let alone in such a cultish setting. I’m not as brave as I’d like to be, especially when it comes to “peer pressure” (God, is there a synonym that doesn’t sound like it comes from a middle school anti-drug PSA?), so I take note when I see examples of that kind of courage. Good work calling them out on their BS tactics!
Authors by :- Astrid Smith
Uuuugh my boss does landmark and is totally the worse for it. My ex boyfriend was TRAUMATIZED by it. I hate landmark! Any type of spirituality or religion that involves a transaction is corrupt.
Authors by :- Anne
“Any type of spirituality or religion that involves a transaction is corrupt.” That pretty much describes ALL OF THEM.
Authors by :-Salena White
I meant any religion that’s like, “give us money to go to the next level/ get to heaven/ reach enlightenment.” I mean, I’m not a fan of religion, but they’re not all that direct.
Authors by :- Anne
you might as well be talking about Zenga, Farmville, and all that Scamsville
Authors by :- Mac Thomson
So you know, Landmark is not a religon or spirituality, and has never claimed to be. Their programs are described as educational and it is in their name. People experience breakthroughs in various areas of life in their partisipation, and for some people they gain freedom in their spirituality.
Authors by :- George Fort
I used to have a close friend, used to because post-Landmark she doesn’t really talk to me anymore. She moved to her home state of Florida with her husband and got a job at Lululemon. As part of becoming a manager there you are expected to attend Landmark trainings. Just after the first one she divorced her husband. When I asked her about it she just said that it is great that they divorced out of the blue, and that she couldn’t be married to someone that didn’t have goals like she did. It was the weirdest conversation ever.
She now has attended several of the seminars and barely speaks to me when I reach out to her. I feel bad for giving up, but I’ve gone through several life events that she doesn’t even acknowledge. All she talks about now is her job at Lululemon, yoga, running, and Landmark. She seems happy in a Stepford way. I just miss my friend.
Authors by :- Mary Turner
the lululemon thing is kind of fascinating – i wonder if that’s everywhere or just her store/florida? is lululemon open about the requirement before the person signs on as an employee?
Authors by :- Alena Joseph
Damn it. I really like Lululemon clothes in spite of all of the garbage about them…but this is a good reminder that I shouldn’t support a company that makes its employees join a cult. Ugh!
Authors by :- Kate
Wow. I googled this after reading the comments and it is part of the corporate structure according to this 2009 article. Crazy.
http:/ /www.fastcompany.com/1208950/lululemons-cult-selling
Author :- Jane Mills
Wow. I’ve been considering buying some lululemon for a while, but I think I’ll stick with Under Armour for my workout clothes.
Author :- Brenda
Also creepy: Lululemon pushes Ayn Rand and objectivism.
http:/ /www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2011/11/ayn_rand_groupies_yoga_enthusiasts_and_the_ame rican_genius_for_self_absorption_.html
When I need to buy slightly over-priced workout wear, my dollar always goes to Stella McCartney X ADIDAS — it’s pretty, functional and Stella loves the little animals!
Author :- Linda Fisher
Objectivism? Seems totally counter-intuitive in regards to yoga.
Author :- Jessy Pinto
Yes, Lululemon is crazy for Landmark. I’m a LUCY girl myself.
Author :- Alix Smith
Check out athleta. They have some really nice yoga gear.
Author :- john Robert
o.0 like I didn’t need another reason to put on my list of “Lululemon is full of crap” here’s a whopper.
Author :- Max White
Oh my…I didn’t know this about them. That is really too bad and very wrong IMHO. My local hot yoga studio just became a lululemon “outpost”, and I stopped going because I didn’t like the weird vibe in the studio. I could never put my finger on it, but as someone of pretty strong moral character, maybe it was the indirect association with the cult that I was sensing.
Author :- Rosa Dyer
They also love them some Ayn Rand…
http:/ /www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/business/media/combines-ayn-rand-and-yoga.html?_r=0
Author :- Mary Turner
HOLY crap! I have never heard any of this about them, then again I don’t really believe in spending lots on yoga gear ( or doing yoga for that matter!) so I NEVER go into their shops. But seriously, Rand + yoga enlightenment seems like a total contradiction,no?
Author :- jazz mark
Ugh. As soon as someone sings her praises, I know they’re going to end up being a selfish, unbearable dick to everyone around them.
Author :- Ruby Morrision
Thanks!
Author :- Alena Joseph
yeah I’ve lost friends to Landmark too. It is some weird shit.
Author :- jenifer
I’m sorry for you having multiple friends in it. It was hard enough with just one lost friendship.
It is super weird, right? All of a sudden she changed, wasn’t interested in anything I was doing that wasn’t in line with her interests (we had always had vastly different interests, but it had never been an issue), and quit contacting me and would only talk to other Landmark/Lululemon devotees on Facebook. I threw her a baby shower for her first child and she didn’t even congratulate me on becoming engaged, getting married or anything else in the last four years. We used to be close and it is so bewildering that she just doesn’t care like she used to. I used to think I had done something wrong, but looked up Landmark when she started posting about it all the time and realized I probably wasn’t the only one feeling this change. I figure her divorce wasn’t a fluke (they had a sickeningly great relationship and he adored her) and her distance from our friendship are a part of whatever she’s taken from the program.
Author :- Mary Turner
Super Weird. The people I knew were a couple so I guess they went into it together. After a couple “seminars” they just cut themselves off from all their friends that weren’t in it, just like your friend.
Author :- jenifer
Oh man, Landmark. At my old job, my boss tried to get me to go to a Landmark workshop. She was really offended when I told her that I wasn’t comfortable with it and didn’t want to go. I thought it was SUPER inappropriate for her to try to recruit me in the workplace. She tried to recruit another co-worker and probably would have kept going but we complained to the Board of Directors and then she shut up. I was relieved when she quit a few months later.
This is the article that made me wary of Landmark and its ilk in the first place:http:/ /www.citypages.com/2001-11-07/news/cult-status/
Author :- Melissa Rock
That is incredibly offensive of your boss to even think that was okay to ask you to go to that. Boss-worker relationships are awkward enough without adding religion to the mix. (The power balance alone is difficult to deal with.) Also, that article is terrifying! Thanks for the link!
Author :- Miranda veruca
Thanks for the link to the article. Very interesting.
Author :- Alix White
One of the very few good things about having been raised in a third-generation scientologist family (and having broken free) is that I now have an extremely strong aversion to groups with even a whiff of cult…and Landmark stinks to high heaven.
Author :- Gracie
You should write an IHTM!
Author :- Elvia ford
IDK- I’d love to read that IHTM, but that’d be a pretty high-stakes article to write. From what I understand, if one were to publish it under one’s own name or with any identifying details in it, one might get cut off from one’s family members, harassed, or one’s family might be punished for it. You kind of have to be either willing to burn bridges or have your identity well-protected to talk about that.
Author :- Linsey
yes, you nailed it. I’m really considering it though. I’m really f*$%& sick of being intimidated by them.
Author :- Gracie
Oh yeah, I was assuming it would be anonymous. That organization is about as corrupt and evil as they come.
Author :- Elvia ford
@ceelou Please write an IHTM!!
Author :- Margie Harvey
Dude, you should write an IHTM
Author :- Levita town
Three generations? Wow. I am seriously impressed that you broke free. Reading the “why didn’t she just leave” comments above I’m reminded of the famous Milgram experiment which showed us that we are far more susceptible to people in perceived positions of power than we think. Fear and shame are TOUGH opponents. I’m amazed by you, Sarah and Katie Holmes. You are strong women, well done.
Author :- Kimberly
“Fear and shame are TOUGH opponents.” Well said! And thanks.
Author :- Alix smith
I have some immediate family that are serious Scientologists. Me… not so much.
Author :- Jesica Marshal
I would’ve bailed on that seminar the minute they said no coffee.
Author :- john Robert
Any religion/workshop that forbids coffee is automatically a cult to me.
Author :- Melissa Rock
And NO SNACKS? Sorry, fuck that.
Author :- smith johnson
Seriously, that would be like them looking me dead in the eye and saying “And you… go fuck yourself.”
Author :- Jesica Marshal
To which I would’ve replied, “Gladly. But I need an espresso shot first.”
Author :- John Robert
I was thinking the EXACT same thing.
Author :- Cassie Thomson
Can we talk business for a sec? So, I quit a great job in Nashville
and moved to LA after meeting this lady who promised to double my
salary. I worked 50 hours the first week, and was handed $250. You do
the math, but I can assure you I wasn’t making $125/week at my former
job. I said something to my boss, and that’s when she began telling me I
was “resisting,” and went into the spill about how I needed to heal my
life, and how she needed to “coach” me. The next Monday, she started
sending me emails about Landmark, and was persistent with it to the
point that I was interested, and looked it up. I have no idea how she
expected me to pay for it off of a measly $250/week paycheck in LA, but
alas, she did. On a daily basis I was, what I believe, emotionally
abused to the point that I started thinking I NEEDED Landmark. What was
wrong with me? I AM an awful person. I SHOULD work for pennies. I think I
heard the words “uncoachable” and “resisting” to the point that reading
them here was giving me flashbacks. Not to mention, the way this woman
treated men (or all people) in her life (it was always “I have to coach
him,” or “TRAIN” them—- umm people aren’t dogs!) disgusted me beyond
belief- BUT, I was brainwashed, because all of the negative was really
coming from somewhere good- she “loved” me and wanted me to “transform”
into a “powerful woman-” so I let it be. There is much more to the
story, and months (yes, I did this for months) later, I walked away for
good. This article was incredibly enlightening for me, YEARS after the
fact. Hearing you talk about it completely solidifies what I should have
been thinking all along: Yes, I am resisting, and you can f*&% off.
BRAVO!
Author :- Jaycee Tunell
If
it looks like a cult, and acts like a cult, then its probably a cult.
Scientology is a cult, and an oddly mainstream one at that. This is some
alarming, milgram experiment type of stuff. Our minds are funny things,
and its soo weird how vulnerable we can be. You are awesome for reading
that letter in front of those assholes. That’s the least of what they
should face for what they do to people.
Author :- James Muse
On a
slightly flippant note, anyone who imitates you by putting their voice
in a higher pitch and repeating what you just said should be shot out of
a cannon. OH LORD I hate it so.
Also, this article was terrifying.
Author :- Melody
Totally makes me think of Principal Nero in The Austere Academy.
Author :- Margaret
It’s so sad how many
people are willing to take advantage of the vulnerable out there.
Financially and emotionally. It’s sick. I’m sure they are generally in
denial and don’t always realize what they are doing, but in their quiet
moments alone I wonder if they see it.
Author :- Suzane Mark
I’m sorry, I can’t
get past this but…why didn’t you just call the bank and tell them to
cancel the check?? Seems to me there was no reason to have any further
discussion about or with Landmark. What am I missing here??
Author :- Alice Jane
I guarantee you that an org like Landmark processes those check within an hour of getting them.
Author :- Rose Tyler
It sounds like she
was led to believe that getting a refund wouldn’t be a problem, so no
need to deal with the hassle and expense of cancelling the check. By the
time she realized that it would be a problem, the check had almost
certainly cleared.
Author :- Celena Maxx
Edited
for clarity: I think I would have been freaked out enough to either call
my bank or just chalk it up as an expensive mistake and move on, not
end up joining a damn cult.
Author :- Alice Jane
Hi. Because when you are vulnerable (see emotional life crisis/marital separation) you aren’t thinking clearly.
Author :- Alix Smith
really? you’re picking apart logic and placing blame?
Author :- Jolie
I was actually wondering that too.
Author :- Style Wylde
Maybe she used a debit card? If you use a debit card, can you have the transaction cancelled?
Author :- mandy george
I can cancel most of
my transactions and checks. I’d only suffer a small fee which, in this
instance, seems worth it. But I’m lucky to have never been in the
mindset of the author where she feels so in despair that she will hand
herself over to strangers just because they were nice.
Author :- Alice Jane
It’s not so much “nice” but
the cyclical double speak where the conversation just goes nowhere you
wanted. I hate that shiz with salespeople, deflecting the point of your
complaint into your problem.
Author :- Joslyn East
I
should have put nice in quotes cause I agree with how you put it. I
would have stayed on the phone with the rep for hours just one-uping the
double speak. I can play the “why” game against a 4 year old for legit a
few hours, I feel like it’s the same thing.
Author :-
Alice Jane
Yes, and I hope you are never in that kind of vulnerable position.
Author :- Alix Smith
I didn’t know that
about debit transactions! I can’t imagine voluntarily sitting in a room
and allowing another adult to prohibit me from using the restroom or
from writing. I don’t understand paying to give up so much control,
being mad about it, and staying for days. So the comments in the article
about how other paticipants stayed rang disingenuous to me, because so
did she.
Author :- Mandy George
I
didn’t know that about debit transactions! I can’t imagine voluntarily
sitting in a room and allowing another adult to prohibit me from using
the restroom or from writing. I don’t understand paying to give up so
much control, being mad about it, and staying for days. So the comments
in the article about how other paticipants stayed rang disingenuous to
me, because so did she.
Author :- jane cloud
We
might be members of the same tribe. It sounds like it. How, in
University, are people not allowed to piss? What the hell is that?
Author :- Mandy George
That’s
the scary part! That you – somehow – find yourself participating if not
allowing yourself to go along with it. The whole time an inner-battle –
am I missing something here? These people seem enamored – and the
constant warnings of “if you leave, you’ll miss the big transformation!
At some point you go, oh, shit- I’ve already spent 12 hours here, so…
Author :- Alix Smith
Oh snap. It actually sounds a lot like my former marriage!
Author :- Mandy George
I
just can’t wrap my head around giving myself over to such a group. I
have been in some deep despairs but nothing close to the soul-selling
experienced here.
Author :- Alice Jane
My
old roommate joined Landmark and hosted one of their recruitment
meetings in our apartment, despite my misgivings. The meeting got ugly
when I called out the Landmark rep for honing in on one of the potential
recruits and essentially ridiculing him for not wanting to fork over
his money. I announced that the meeting was over – something my roommate
should have done but was too far gone in the Landmark way of life to
have the courage to do. The Landmark rep kept talking and ignored me. I
announced again that the meeting was over. Still more talking. Finally, I
started taking snacks and beverages out of people’s hands, putting away
chairs, etc. and hinting that I would call the police. She finally
left. My roommate eventually quit Landmark 4 months later by filing a
restraining order. She almost lost half her family (her mother and
brother were still in the program) over it. Landmark is no joke. Stay
the fuck away, people.
Author :- Rose Tyler
the
comments here from people in landmark are creepier than the actual
story, which really gave me the heebie-jeebies. i’m just happy i know
what this is and can avoid people in the real world saying this is a
good thing
Author :- jane marshal
I
have a dear old friend of many years who is a Landmark… let’s say
enthusiast. He pushed me about doing it so many times that I finally
told him, “I love you, and I want to always have you in my life, but I’m
going to have to say goodbye to you unless you stop trying to get me to
do Landmark. I am not going to talk to you about this anymore.” He
dropped the subject permanently with me. It also put a damper on our
friendship, but at least we are still friends.
Author :- Lindsey Amber
I had that experience with an LDS friend. He even warned me that he had
lost friendships before because of proselytizing, so I think he ended up
appreciating that I called him on it.
Author :-
Violet Wright
I had a terrifying experience with
Landmark at age 15. Yes, there is a program for teens. I went with my
father and my stepmother to the family & friends night and they
decided to sign me up. I had ambiguous feelings about it from the start,
but my father is usually very attuned to bullshit and isn’t afraid of
calling people out on it, so I assumed (at 15) that Landmark was on the
up and up. I had been having problems at home and in school (rebelling
against my alcoholic mom, getting stoned, smoking cigarettes, dressing
like Wynona in Beetlejuice… pretty run of the mill teenage stuff) and I
figured “why not? It could possibly make me feel less crappy” because at
that time I didn’t really know that being 15 just feels crappy. So I
went. I lasted maybe 4 hours. It just seemed so obvious to me! There was
a point after the first meal break (maybe they legally had to feed the
kids 2x as many times?) when the leader stated that people who didn’t
want to be there should leave. I got up and walked towards the back of
the Airport Hilton (yep) ballroom and was stopped by 4 or 5 employees. I
told them I’d like to use a phone (not every 15y.o. had a phone in
1994) and they literally wouldn’t let me call my parents. I started
threatening to scream for the cops. They took me into a little office
with a woman who told me she knew better than I did what was good for me
and that my dad would be disappointed in me if I left before the
transformation. She said she had a degree and so she knew what I needed.
I asked her what her degree was in and she wouldn’t answer, I asked her
if it was in Psychology and she wouldn’t answer, I asked her if it was
in Business and she wouldn’t answer. I told her I was going to scream
for the police and she finally let me call my family. While my dad was
disappointed that I didn’t want to stay, he trusted me enough to know
that I wasn’t in a cool situation and he picked me up. Oh, and FYI:
there were no refunds. Very, very scary shit. Very uncool that they prey
on children. Thank you to the author of this article. People should
talk about this more.
Author :- Clarissa
My
mom was briefly involved with this. At the time, I didn’t know anything
about it, but her description creeped me out enough that I “resisted”
her urges for me to try it, even though my life was off the rails at the
time, even when she offered to pay. I was angry that they had duped
her.
Thank you for writing this! More people need to tell it like it
is. These people are vultures, and they shouldn’t be permitted to carry
on.
Author :- Melissa Hall
My
ex did it while we were dating. Sadly, I think people who have issues
with erm, “authenticity” are the ones who are most drawn to it — ironic
(or not), because the whole Landmark discourse is couched in deliberate
obscurity.
Manipulation tactics aside, the worst thing about Landmark
is the jargon. If you can get past their strange terminology, what you
find underneath is basically a shtick about radical honesty, y’know,
looking at yourself and particularly your emotional reactions from a
distance in order to distinguish which reactions can serve you and which
ones only harm you. All fine and good. But oh my, the jargon! I kind of
think that most adherents get hung up on deciphering the jargon, which
in turn winds up serving as a substitute for actual understanding.
(There is surely some fancy term for this sort of phenomenon!)
My ex
used to talk to me in what seemed like code. He didn’t cheat on me — he
was “telling himself a story” about how he couldn’t be faithful. He
didn’t want to cut it out — he was “open to creating the possibility” of
a monogamous relationship. He didn’t lie to me — he failed “to take a
stand.”
Author :- Stacy
Oh.
My. God. I think I’d try to drown anyone who tried to talk in this
“code.” That is SO MANIPULATIVE. And infuriating. And frightening.
I have an ex that did it too, after we’d been dating about a year
and a half. His former boss also kind of coerced him into doing it,
numerous other people in the office had been asked to do it, and his
boss even offered to pay for half of it. So he did it, and then promptly
broke up with me. All the shit about ‘authenticity,’ how i wasn’t
‘being present’…jesus. He tried to get me to do it and I actually signed
up in an attempt to stave off the breakup (clearly this relationship
had other problems). It was like he was in this weird trance…the whole
thing was fucked. All our friends were totally freaked out. A few of
them joined him for the final ‘friends and family’ night (which I think
ostensibly is so they can see the progress you’ve made but obviously
exists for the sole purpose of swindling as many people at one time as
possible) and they were just totally mindboggled.
We wound up getting
back together a few months later and he still wanted me to do it, I
said I would but that I was prepared to walk out if I wasn’t into it.
They make you stay a minimum amount of time before you can consider
ditching, but when I walked out, no one stopped me, and my refund was
actually processed without much hassle, surprisingly enough. Ex and I
stayed together for another year, during which time he pursued
traditional therapy instead of more Landmark crap and (shock of shocks!)
found it way more helpful.
Author :-
Britney
Does anyone remember the Six Feet Under episodes where Ruth briefly did a sorta Landmark thing? WEIRD.
Author :- Jenifer
She spoke fiercely from the “I”
Author :- mario dias
YES!! I love that one. It baffled me so much the first time I saw it. I didn’t know things like that existed.
Author :- smith Johnson
Yes!
I actually brought this piece up to my husband and when he didn’t know
what Landmark was, I was like, “Remember that episode …?” And then he
got it right away.
Author :- dyna brown
Actually this line from the Wikipedia article probably explains a lot:
“Landmark rejects the cult label and “freely threatens or pursues lawsuits against those who call it one.”"
http:/ /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Education
Author :- Jack Ronald
The
wiki page gets edited frequently. For a brief period, the page pointed
to the fact that Landmark is classified as a cult in two European
countries (France and… I can’t remember. Germany, maybe.)
Author :- cherry
Well, that would definitely be something it has in common with Scientology.
Author :- Jack Ronald
Click here to edit text.
My personal experience with the L. Forum made me believe there is a Scientology connection.
Me
and my husband and a couple of friends were invited to a Sunday session
by a family member who did the Forum. At one point the guests were
sitting in little groups of 3-4 with a Forum facilitator. Our
facilitator was really young and sweet.
We were looking at some
pamphlet, and I noticed it kept making reference to “the science of
ontology” So I asked our eager young facilitator, “I see mentions of the
science of ontology here, does this mean your group is affiliated with
Scientology?”
She got a startled look on her face and was tongue
tied. Then we followed her gaze to a group leader standing against the
wall watching us. He shook his head at her and gestured for her to come
to him. She just got up and left our group without another word.
We
all kind of looked at each other, like what the heck was that all about?
And for the rest of that exercise, she didn’t come back to work with
us, and no other facilitator approached our group.
So yeah, I
wouldn’t be surprised if there is a Scientology connection. The whole
thing was so culty. I’m all about self-help and empowerment, but it’s so
messed up that groups like this are allowed to operate and keep
fleecing tons of money from people.
Author :- Clare Brown
Weird! I am beyond
fascinated by everything about these groups; I’m eating these comments
up. The guy lurking in the background is so … David Lynch.
Author :- Dyna Brown
A best friend of mine’s
family paid for him to do a Landmark forum, and he enjoyed it and felt
like he learned some useful things. He suggested I check out the free
event, and it was at a hotel three blocks away from my apartment, so I
did. I made it about 20 minutes before I got up and left.
I have a
hard time feeling sorry for anyone swindled by Landmark, since to me it
not only sounded so blatantly like a marketing scam, but also just…dumb.
Like the intro chapter to a freshman psych textbook, or like a QVC host
selling talk therapy.
Edit -
About my friend who did the forum:
thankfully, he’s a pretty lazy, unmotivated guy (probably why his
parents sent him to the thing in the first place) and while he meant to
do the follow-up courses and group meetups, he never actually did. As
far as I know they don’t call him anymore, so I guess they do eventually
leave people alone.
Author :- Jackline France
I knew, from the
headline, that this was going to be about Landmark. I went to an intro
about 10 years ago, and I was astonished that they manage to suck so
many people into their cultlike scam. My former coworker lost something
close to $100,000 before she figured out what it was. Creepy, scary, and
I’ve been kind of obsessed with debunking it ever since. Great article.
I applaud you.
Author :- Ashley Jones
I have to admit, I don’t totally understand why you are saying this isn’t a cult. It sure sounds like one…
Author :- jene donald
Click here to edit text.I think of it as being a hybrid between a cult and a multi level marketing scheme.
Author :- Melissa Rock
Because coming out and saying it can get your pants sued off.
Author :- Rony James
she doesn’t want to lose her blog?
https:/ /www.eff.org/deeplinks/2006/11/landmark-forums-internet-censorship-campaign-goes-down-under
Author :- Rock Dyer
Awesome first-person
account on a situation I’ve only ever really “heard” about. Your letter
scene was downright heroic – like Greek mythology level. Totally
captivating read, glad you got out.
Author :- Tyra Clark
Eeek! Don’t drink the Koolaid, guys!
Author :- Cecelia Lopez
This was scary, excorcist status.
Author :- Jessy
Having just briefly read
up about it, I deleted my previous comment since it was all about
Scientology, when Landmark actually has its origins in Werner Erhard’s
est, which is definitely similar in terms of certain tactics, if not
actual philosophy.
Author :- Jack Ronald
A friend and her
sister went through an EST program in college, and they were rude and
insufferable for months afterward. All of their friends finally staged
an intervention. Thing is, these were two smart, ballsy, talented,
strong, self-actualized women to begin with. I’m not sure what they
thought they were going to get out of it, but I suspect it was a family
participation thing. Ugh. It was the first time I had ever heard of it
(mid 80s), and I was completely turned off. Even at the tender age of
20, I knew to call bullshit on the whole thing.
Author :- Violet Wright
This is fascinating
and scary as crap. Thank you for writing this! I think it’s really scary
anytime a ‘religion’ or ‘way of life’ FORCES you to do something. Super
super creepy.
Author :- Marie Edwards
Thank you for
writing about this and for being brave enough to get up in front of
everyone and read that letter. An acquaintance of mine did this course
and I had wondered if it was like this … and it seems it’s worse than I
suspected.
Author :- Sydney Howard
I had a horrible
experience with Landmark! I agreed to go to that free seminar with a
friend because I was going through a very rough time in my life and I
had never heard of Landmark before. After charging $500 on my credit
card, I was signed up for the three day basic seminar described above. I
lasted about three hours on the first day, left and never looked back. I
wanted to get a refund, but the leader guy told us that in order to do
so, we would have to get on stage in front of the entire group and say
“I refunse to open my mind to new possibilities.” That might not sound
bad now, but in front of hundreds of people who were eager to be
brainwashed, I was not about to get on stage to be humiliated and
pressured to stay in the class. It’s been almost a year and I’m still
paying off that stupid credit card balance. I have called since and they
won’t do anything about it.
Author :- Julie Mark
Sigh, one of my friends
has been attending these things for Scientology for about a year now.
It’s now like THE THING we don’t talk about but is so tangible between
us.
Author :- Joslyn East
I have a couple
friends who are Landmark “grads.” I have one friend who sent her teen
son to youth – Landmark. He hated it, of course and thought he was being
punished by his mother for something.
Author :- Christine Long
Bravo! Landmark is
just the latest iteration of a “therapy” known as EST. Bottom line for
me — if any organization (church, self-help group) tells you something
bad with happen to you if you don’t follow their program, it’s a cult.
Author :- Victoria Porter
Holy wow. That shit cray.
Author :- Meadow Black
I’ve never heard
about Landmark, but EW and CULT-Y. If it walks like a cult, sounds like a
cult and takes your money like a cult then it’s a cult. Glad you were
able to so quickly get yourself out of there and not internalize the
awfulness of what these people were saying to you.
I usually find
cults kind of fascinating, but when it’s so evidently all about money,
it’s just gross (as opposed to gross and fascinating). Great post
though, and hopefully will help someone else not get sucked in.
Author :- Trista Willis
Thank you for
writing this! I warn people about the Landmark Forum all the time.
Having living in New Mexico, Colorado and California (where there seem
to be a lot of people who have “done the Forum”) I was constantly
approached and pressured by strangers and acquaintances alike to check
it out. I grew up resisting the religion imposed on me by my family so I
am always suspicious of this type of thing.
Author :- Cayla Peters
Thank you for your story.
I had a terrible experience with Landmark myself. My friends were very
concerned about me after I did the Forum. They physically blocked my car
in to stop me from going for continuing “education” classes at
Landmark. I am so thankful that they did. I suffered severe anxiety for
several months after attending the Forum. In my opinion, there is no
question that this organization is cult-like. Please do not let your
friends, relatives, or anyone you know attend the Forum.
Author :- george walker
A close friend of
mine invited me to a seminar of some sort to “become my best self” or
some shit like that. I’ve turned her down twice. After reading this
article, I went to check out her facebook likes and sure enough,
landmark was there. Oh god, so glad I never went. Thanks for informing
me about this!
Author :- Tessa
Wow. Just…wow. I love that your speech at the end was a total “Movie Moment.” So…did you get your refund?! I need closure!
Author :- Bria Fox
One of the things Landmark grads do is “pay” for other people to go.
“I’ll pay your way!” they say when you balk at $500. Whether they
actually pay to Landmark, I DOUBT. I think there probably is just a
quota for new people to fill.
Author :- Christine Long
My boss offered to pay for me, too. Which seemed, in light of the employee-supervisor relationship, all kinds of inappropriate.
Author :- Melissa Rock
Yes! This has happened to me too! I was handed the cash to attend, but I gave it back and didn’t go.
Author :- Macey
!!! That is so creepy.
Author :- Miah Frank
I have an ex-boyfriend, now
great friend, that has always said that if he really wanted to get rich,
he’d just invent a new religion.
Author :- Levita Town
L Ron Hubbard said it first. Look it up.
Author :- Rony
You got played.
Did you ever get a refund?
Author :- Cristal Franklin
very creepy. I had
been repeatedly asked by a wedding coordinator to go to one, but being
pretty authentic, outspoken and grounded, I refused, equating it to
‘EST’, and from your statements, my assessment was correct. Very creepy,
I would have been kicked out in 5 mins for challenging the speaker
before you had written your initial check. : )
Author :- Kat brown
I loved this! Landmark
is completely insane, I’ve known some people who have totally bought
into this nonsense. I think it’s a great lesson that we sometimes need
to be reminded to trust our instincts.
Author :- Jenny Frank
When I was in college,
I knew a lot of people who were involved in the Legacy Center /
Lifespring. They were incredibly agressive recruiters; I recall our RDs
actually *throwing an event in the dorm,* which I thought was profoundly
fucked up and unethical at the time, and even more so nine years later.
A couple friends got sucked in; what they later told us about the
workshops they attended read like brainwashing 101.
Author :- Jack Martin
Creepy shit. The idea of going to anything labeled as a “seminar” kinda makes my skin crawl, though.
Author :- Alexa Jones
Thanks for sharing. As
I was reading I thought “wtf was she doing!” Almost sounds like an
AMWAY pitch my ex-wife and I got roped into.
Author :- Layla Roy
Hahaha, my friend and
her husband got roped into Amway – she had sent us all messages on FB,
but everyone started asking if she had been hacked, and had posted on
her wall asking her if she knew that someone else had gotten into her FB
account. A few other friends said something like “Please tell me this
is a joke.” It wasn’t, because she updated her profile pic from a
picture from an Amway meeting. But I checked last month and mysteriously
everything Amway is gone from her profile. You could tell she was
STOKED. I felt bad that everyone inadvertently shot her down like that..
but damn.
Author :- Lauren Parker
Hey, I know you!!
Your friend reminds me of a “friend” that would not leave me alone about
selling Arbonne. She sent me copious amounts of mail and was always
pressuring me to buy the starter pack thing that cost $200. It was
annoying and crossed basically all the boundaries of a normal friend.
Anyway, I’d rather buy Sweet Libertine any day of the week.
Author :- Madelyn
Hey, I know you too!
I’ve
had people say “You’re so good at selling Sweet Libertine, why don’t you
try selling Avon/Mary Kay/etc?” I’m just like “…what?” You have to
explain that this isn’t multi-level marketing, we actually make the
stuff, and no, we can’t contact the “home office” to check and see if
it’s Ok if I sell other makeup because I AM THE HOME OFFICE.
Author :- Lauren Parker
I know a lot of
people who do Arbonne and while they did try to get me to sell the stuff
after I said “no” the first time they left me alone. However, I do use
some of their products (facewash and mineral powder) and like them a
lot. They do not irritate my skin and cause breakouts like other
products did and the mineral powder evens out my skin tone well enough
that people compliment me on my skin. I have no interest in selling the
products though.
Way back in 2002, I was looking for a day job while
going to grad school at night and answered an ad for an office manager.
It turned out to be a direct marketing / multi-level marketing firm that
sold perfumes door to door and you only got paid if you sold a bottle
for more than $10. I lasted two days before I told the company owner
that she was running a scam because seriously no one wants to buy
generic perfume from some random person going door to door. I drove by
the office a few months later and it was closed up. I also had people
try to get me into Amway, Melaleuca, and YTB Travel but I told them very
firmly no and they stopped asking.
Author :- Brooklyn
My experience has
been that when I try to avoid pain and speed healing, or seek quick
solutions to deep-seated problems, I end put moving from a bad situation
to a worse situation. The activities of this Landmark Forum disgust me,
and I hope the author was able to get her money back. I also wish her
peace and strength and love. Listening to that protective inner voice
and trusting our own intuition are incredibly important to living a
healthy life. I’ll spare the details, but I pissed away $2500 several
years ago on a combo organic farm/spiritual/cancer-healing scam in
Hawaii, because I was furious with my employer and my (lack of) stable
employee housing. Honestly, though I left Hawaii angrier than ever, that
experience had to happen to me. It forced me to better respect my
money, the time I spend earning my money, the necessary healing process,
and my intuition.
Author :- Anna Jane
My dad went to a lot of
Forum seminars, back in the late 80s. He talked about how it changed his
life, but it sounded like a “racket” to me. I couldn’t see how it
changed his life at all. When I was 18, he invited me to dinner but we
ended up at a run-down hotel where a Forum seminar was being held. We
had not even eaten yet, and it was going to be a 3-hour ordeal. He
excitedly told me how he really wanted me to attend with him so that my
life could be changed, too. In the end we went home without attending. I
suspect it was because he knew they’d want money from me, and since I
didn’t have any, he would end up writing the check. He is very tight
with money, so I think that is why he changed his mind. But maybe
something finally clicked, because he stopped talking about it, and
stopped going to their events. I hope it was because he realized that it
wasn’t changing his life that much after all, but it was probably the
money.
Author :- Harper Beta
I have mixed
feelings about Landmark. When I did the forum it was great and helped me
work out a load of stuff. But I really didn’t like having to enrol
people – I feel like it should be a choice, not an obligation. I
followed up by doing the Advanced course which was awful – guess I just
didn’t ‘get it’. They really tried to bully me into doing the next
course to the point where I had a panic attack in the auditorium. As I
was driven home I answered a phone call which just may be the most
abusive ‘conversation’ I’ve ever had. Coming from a family of long-time
landmark participators we were all shocked and appalled at their
treatment of me. No apology was ever given. I really get the money
politics you mentioned – it does feel like being in a giant
advertisement for parting with money, or getting others to part with
theirs.
Also, I’m really sorry about what they said about your experiences.
Author :- Lauren Pinto
I was fascinated
to read this because someone I was talking to as part of my job (in the
UK) brought this up recently – I had no idea what they were on about,
and the website of the organisation really wasn’t much help. They just
kept saying it was ‘intense’. I see! Well done for being able to make a
stand – things like this always remind me of the Milgram experiment. The
things people will do to each other…being in a group just seems to make
it worse.
Author :- Sophia Dyer
Wow. That was seriously frightening.
Author :- Violet Wright
I almost got
sucked into one of these myself, however it had a different name. I
didn’t know it was scientology related, but it makes sense now that I
think about it! I did end up getting my money refunded when I decided to
not attend.
Author :- Grace Long
Fascinating! I would be interested in more new agey/ religious stuff.
Author :- nikol rich
Wow…I am impressed.
Last weekend we had two people who wen through the Landmark courses and
one of them who got pretty high in the group. The words ‘authentic’ were
tossed around and this person was nothing but a user…of people, etc. I
have known this person for 5 years, and I haven’t figured out yet how
Landmark has improved his life: he claims it has, but he’s still the
same bobbing and weaving man I have known before. IN fact, I think he’s
much worse. He’s unreliable, self-centered, and all of this while
crowing how much Landmark has changed his life. HAH!! We won’t have him
over again….he’s too corrupted with the Landmark philosophy and I do
remember he attempts a few years ago to get us to ‘bite’. When I asked
him about he relationship between Landmark and Scientology, he just
shuffled it off. Not interested in any real debate or discussion.
I
have found other Landmark people to be drones…they had little in their
lives before, and upon taking the Landmark seminars, they feel
empowered…but they really don’t change at all…it’s in their minds but
their behavior to others is the same crap. We have avoided this cult and
cult it remains. It is too sad that something like this fills the lives
of very self-centered and deluded people. In fact, it seems to
reinforce their own ‘old’ behavior.
Author :- Evelyn
Wow. I can’t speak to any of the details, but this seems like a huge exaggeration.
Author :- Leena Jones
I’ve done several
of their courses and volunteered; and have a good laugh with friends who
have done the same about much of the Landmark Schtick. Some of your
story seems contrived–but so be it.
I think there is great potential
value (and real potential harm) available through Landmark. I think they
actually do a fair amount to reduce the risk/harm–but at the end of the
day I think their language/framework prevents them from truly being
responsible for the harm part.
For this reason I have suggested Landmark to only a handful of people.
Most
of us walk through life quite mired in a bunch of junk; and we also
walk through life often having made choices where our feet aren’t really
firmly planted on anything real that is genuinely healthy. The problem
is this–we need to get knocked up on the side of our head to get our
feet out of the mire–but we also need those feet planted on something
solid that is formulated out of goodness, truth, reality and health.
Landmark
does nothing to help folk get out of the mire while placing their feet
on something firm. In the Landmark world–there is nothing firm on which
to place one’s feet outside of what one creates out of thin air.
At the end of one of the seminars the leader stated ” Remember the ground is very hard.”
In other words, “You can jump off a building to create the possibility of being a bird–but the ground is still there.”
This
is the problem: The work actually can be powerful–but it is done in a
fantasyland. And in their fantasyland they refuse to see the fantasy
causes destruction in real lives.
Lock two people in solitary
confinement. One will become a saint. The other will become insane.
Landmark thinks because some folks become “saints” that it validates the
work (whether the work is solitary confinement or the Forum).
They see what they do now as a gentler version of the old EST. They have tried to modify that which destroys.
The friend that introduced me to it had a nervous breakdown.
I
took long breaks between the different courses. For instance, over the
course of a year after first course I absorbed Landmark’s “Everything is
empty and meaningless” dogma. One day I had a conversation with God and
I realized the dogma is absolutely true and false.
It was the
conclusion King Solomon recorded in the Biblical book of Ecclesiastes.
But in response to his learning there was a response–and that is that
“empty and meaningless” is a space which “God’s fullness can fill.”
When
this settled in my heart I again knew where my feet were planted. I
could receive what the next course had to offer–and enrolled.
I never
allowed them sway over my choices of “if/when/how”–and definitely never
allowed them to impose any pressure about enroling others.
The
“enrollment” schtick is about facing up to how we are (or are not)
willing to really be the person we desire and to share ourselves so
others might relate to us in a way that support our being that person.
That is a worthy exploration.
But again, Landmark is not willing to own how very manipulative they are–and how that manipulation can truly harm people.
So on serious counts–I find them not trustworthy–and hence simply discard their arguments that amount to “Trust us.”
Author :- Roy Johnson
“So. Is it a cult? Technically, no. But, if it walks like cult, talks
like a cult, and preys on people like a cult, it just might be
Landmark.”
Repeating catchy neato sounding cliches does not make them
true. It is just lazy shallow thinking and writing IMO. The above is
one of those cliche’s regurgitated an untold # of times out of laziness.
Most often, things sound and look like other things and they are not
those things.
Most adults have never heard of nor done The Landmark
Forum (TLF) and will NEVER do it. Some adults choose to spend their time
and $ on it. All who have endeavoured of their own free will to do it,
hoping to reap benefits from doing it, leave with a different experience
and say different things about their experience.
Sarah, your acount
is full of sound and fury and it tells me a little bit about you and
your point of view which includes a view of others being seen by you as
“scary” “destructive”.
If you conducted yourself as a gate crasher,
the way you say you conducted yourself in TLF, in ANY group setting and
went against the grain/mood/intent of the event whether it was trying to
upset the apple cart in a high school history class discussion, or a
college presentation, or a business seminar, or in a speech at a wedding
reception, or anywhere, you would elicite much the same reaction as you
say you did in TLF and likely you would have also walked away with a
tale to tell in which you were the hero/victim and everyone else was the
perpetrator. Same script, different setting.
TLF is a just one of
thousands if not millions of courses (programs) to be done or not done,
completed or not competed. You are a grown up.
Landmark Education
(LE) is a business and presents itself as such. LE wants our $$$$ and is
skilfully designed to extract $ from customers in exchange for what LE
views as a service. This is much like every other successful business in
America which each has has it’s own ways of extracting $ from their
customers. Starbucks and Dunkin’ Donuts uses an addictive ingredient
called caffeine to assist in extracting $ from their customers.
Welcome to the USA.
Author :- Camila Fisher
Omg, love this!!!
Author :- charls
I have a very bright, very skeptical friend who did Landmark and swears it changed his life.
Who knows.
Author :- Mackenzie
I did a similar program
(although after reading this, I think it’s WAY less sketchy), and I am
probably the most skeptical, cynical person I have ever known. I got a
lot out of it, never enrolled anyone else, and never felt pressured to
pay for anything I didn’t want to do.
Author :- Stella Wood
I am sorry you had
the experience you did. I could imagine that would be very
disheartening. My experience was so different, it was as if I attended
an entirely different program from an entirely different organization.
One
of the main aspects that I got was the idea of how we create the
meaning in life that we then live in and the vast implications of that
fundemental idea. I have taken numerous Landmark programs and from my
perspective, they are the most anti-blame organization that I have ever
seen. However they are big on people claiming responsibility for thier
experience as a source for freedom in one’s life. I see these as two
destinct ideas.
By the way, I have assisted in some programs and I
assure you that the people who do volunteer are as fully expressed and
as independantly thinking people as yourself, and you might imagine how
it could be seen as insulting to refer to us as drones. Just so you
know.
mac
Author :- mac white
tsk tsk. here is a
great example of one person asserting that their viewpoint is “Reality” …
even in the face of massive disagreement– (a couple hundred others who
“got it” as opposed to the three who agreed with her)– well they ALL
just must be brainwashed, because clearly *she’s* the one who knows
what’s going on!
to respond to a few random points:
1) no
coffee/food in the room is simply a logistical thing… 200 people
knocking over carpet-staining beverages and grinding spilled cheetos
into the rug is a maintenance nightmare; this should be obvious. it’s
not some kind of weird deprivation thing.
2) cults remove people from
the world and their loved ones, landmark pushes people into the world
to create stronger, more loving relationships and create their
contribution to the world with more power and intention. therefore it is
not a cult. the reason that people sometimes experience divorce or
gradually move away from some friendships is due to the tremendous
growth they experience– a wife might realize that she’s not willing to
settle for a relationship that isn’t fulfilling, friends gradually move
toward people who are striving to live their lives powerfully rather
than making excuses for why they’ll never have or be what they want to
have or be. kind of like how alcoholics get sober and give up their
destructive behaviors and their alcoholic friends, landmarkians stop
being willing to settle for mediocrity.
3) landmark charges money
because it costs money to put on. the leaders fly in from all over the
world, they rent convention centers with linen and janitorial services,
they have staff, and so forth. people act like “enlightenment” should be
free, and sometimes it is– if you wanna quit your job and fly to nepal
to live in a cave with a monk (i imagine your plane ticket and food will
cost money). they don’t take into account that the people that are
spreading that “enlightenment”– even if they feel called to do that out
of the goodness of their own hearts– have bills to pay too, and you
can’t work a day job *and* be a landmark forum leader.
4) regarding
recruitment, oftentimes people get so moved by the possibilities they
see for their lives that they of course want to share it with their
loved ones… bring their husbands and wives so they can create a
wonderful marriage– bring their sister so she can stop a destructive
cycle, etc. and landmark actively encourages people to bring relatives,
coworkers and friends because it just makes life more workable for the
transformed people if they can go home to a transformed environment…
imagine what it would be like if you had taken an intensive nonviolent
communication course and could communicate effectively and with love,
but everyone in your environment communicated with passive
aggressiveness or by shouting insults and hurling toasters. whether you
see their attempts at recruitment as “encouraging” you, “pressuring” you
or “marketing” to you depends on your viewpoint and your relationship
to the idea of “selling.” however, because most people have an adverse
relationship to being “sold to,” i will say that even people who are
involved with landmark and are very “pro-landmark” often have issues
with this to greater and lesser degrees.
to offer another
perspective, here’s a great article by a u.k. investigative journalist
who was skeptical, but was able to let go of her own b.s.,
justifications and stories enough to transform her relationships and her
life.
http:/ /www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2…
the obvious, predictable
response to this posting will be that i’m another “drone” who has been
brainwashed, so i invite you to contact, question, insult or disparage
me personally at my email, swimmingtyger @gmail.com.
Author :- Destiny
Landmark gave me my life. Now,
before you write me off as one of the people who “follows a cult” and
are a “poor, manipulated soul”, please take a chance to read what I have
to say.
I’m a smart, professional, soon-to-be RN and I question
everything in my life with an extremely critical eye. I don’t walk into
anything blindly, I’m not religious, and I believe in the freedom of
independent thinking above everything. I had been in therapy since I was
a young kid, did yoga, tried several religions, etc. – nothing “worked”
for me.
Before doing Landmark I was a liar, didn’t know what it
meant to be honest, was extremely manipulative, carried around this
enormous anger and hate from a difficult childhood (which translated
into having a horrible relationship with my family because I blamed them
for everything that went wrong in my life), partied hard (and
dangerously – that goodness I’m alive), believed that I was worthless,
and had no goals in life.
I was living life from an extremely selfish
and tiny perspective because I didn’t believe that I was good enough or
could get over myself enough to be a powerful person. I didn’t think
there was any hope for me. I was content with working at a small job,
going to school occasionally, partying, and eventually dying – probably
from all the partying.
My best friend and ex-boyfriend both had done
Landmark and had been telling me for years that I needed to do it. I
blew them off and used excuses of it being too much money, I didn’t have
the time, or that it was a “cult” (because the internet says it is – so
it MUST be true! ). I finally bit the bullet, paid the money, and did
the Forum in San Francisco in 2009 and the Advanced Course shortly
thereafter.
Fast forward to now – I talk with my parents every day
and I finally got to tell them that I love and forgave them for what
occurred in the past. I dropped the act of being a manipulative bitch
and it lead to having meaningful relationships with the people I love. I
do what I say I’m going to do when I’m going to do it. I’m approaching
graduation of a nursing program and will be working on a graduate degree
and eventually my doctorate – something I never thought that I would be
able to accomplish or could be in my future.
Landmark is what works
for me. It doesn’t work for people who aren’t ready to take a full dive
into the deep end of self development. Even if you don’t want to take
that leap it doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person.
(Also, you don’t
have to have a horrible life in order to get something out of it. I know
many successful, self-actualized people who had breakthroughs out of
doing Landmark.)
I can promise you that Landmark won’t brain wash you
– they can’t. You’re doing all the work by yourself and if you aren’t
invested in making a change it won’t do anything for you.
All I can
tell you about is my personal experience and what Landmark gave me – and
they honestly gave me everything. Things aren’t always perfect and I
have breakdowns like every other human, but I can honestly say that I
love my life and I’m thankful every day for the opportunities I have
that can make it possible.
Author :- Ruby Morgan
P.S. If you had a difficult childhood, it WAS your family’s fault. A child can’t control her parents’ behavior. DUH.
Grow up. Yourself, not with some cult. Criminy.
Author :- Addison
Why do you feel the need to
put me and my life choices down? The fact that I’ve done Landmark and
have opinions on how it worked for me affects you not at all.
At the same time, if you want to feel sorry for me for something that
has made my and my community’s lives better, that’s entirely within your right.
I’m
not getting on your case for things you’ve done in your life (and I
don’t even know you, but I can wager a guess that you’ve probably done
things that some people would find wrong/offensive. Everyone does in one
way or another.)
If you want to put people down, that’s entirely
your choice. Just please don’t force your views on what Landmark is or
isn’t on me. I’m just giving my opinion here – I really don’t care if
you do Landmark or not. It isn’t for everyone and I get that.
(Also,
coming from someone who was in group homes and foster homes, I can tell
you that there were several kids whose difficult childhood was most
definitely not their parents’ fault. And I knew that my parents weren’t
going to apologize until I forgave both them and myself. It’s just what
worked in my situation. I wanted to have a great relationship with them
so I did what I needed to do to make that happen.)
Author :- Ashley Brown
I am very sorry you had a
rough childhood. It wasn’t your fault. The sooner you understand that
comfort and healing comes from WITHIN the better.
I am of the opinion
that a-holes are a-holes, REGARDLESS of whether they are family or not.
Do you “forgive” random a-holes that you run into day-to-day? You
shouldn’t. And your parents should be no different. You were a child,
they were adults. I’m not trying to upset you; I just hate to see people
blame themselves on things when the problems are not theirs.
I wish you comfort, and I hope you find it within, not with a bunch of clowns trying to make a buck off of you.
Author :- Addison
I
totally get what you’re saying. Thank you so much for your response.
I’ve done a ton of healing from within, actually, with the help of
therapy, religion, and Landmark. (For the record, I’ve paid – grand
total – $125 to Landmark. They offer scholarships to people who
absolutely can’t afford it. It’s only now that I have a job and am doing
a seminar once every few weeks that I don’t qualify anymore.)
It’s just what helped me get over it and I’m very thankful for everything that helped me get to the place I am today.
As for forgiving random a-holes in the day to day – I do, actually.
Because
I get that if they’re angry it generally isn’t anything that I’ve done
and it’s usually all their bullsh*t (if it is something I’ve done
directly, I obviously apologize for what I’ve done. Because, you know,
that’s the adult way to handle things. ) If they want to be angry and
rude, that’s their right. It just doesn’t have to affect me.
Author :- Ruby Morgan
I am very glad you’re better. It just drives me crazy when people who were mistreated or abused as children are told that somehow they had something to do with it.
The reason I’ve been studying this is that a friend of mine has been involved with this for some time, and has basically become distant and weird with anyone NOT in the program. Then when I read this, it just seems very unhealthy.
Just be careful. And don’t hold good people who DON’T do this program at arm’s length, please?
Author :- Addison
Thank you!
I can understand why the stigma is there and I’m so sorry that it is.
I wish that people who are involved with organizations, schools,
religions, etc., would just accept that not everyone is going to be
interested and not push people away because of it. Bleh. Give me your opinion and why it worked for you and let me make my own decision, ya know?
The majority of the people in my life haven’t done Landmark and that bothers me not at all. If they’re interested, I’ll take them. I’m big on people finding the thing that lights them up and stick with that if it works for them – for my boyfriend it’s acting, my father it’s environmental development projects and hiking, for one of my best friends it’s video games.
Author :- Ruby Morgan
So explain the behavior detailed above. What does that have to do with what you’re talking about?
Author :- Rosy
Heina: I’m not going to make the author’s opinions wrong because there was truly something that made her so upset to post the words above.
- The snacks and bathroom: I have chronically low blood sugar and get kidney infections a few times a year. I took bathroom breaks at least once an hour. I also know lots of people in the courses I’ve taken who did the same. They and I weren’t berated or told that we were missing out.
- The emotional abuse/belittling or not letting you speak about what’s bothering you even if it’s against them: Never once have I heard about this happening or experienced this happening in all the courses I’ve done. In fact, at my seminar last week several people got up and voiced active frustration at the leader because they weren’t getting a particular concept. He didn’t make them wrong for their opinions and constructively worked with them till they got it.
Author :- Ruby Morgan
The mother of the family I used to babysit for in college was very involved in Landmark forum and would tell me about it occasionally. She is an amazing woman, small business owner, phenomenal mother and wait for it… not a member of a cult. It sounds like your experience was horrendous, but that doesn’t invalidate the fact that Landmark can be an extremely positive and meaningful experience for some people.
Author :- Lucy Ward
Couldn’t it just mean that she was near the top of the pyramid in that particular area and was reaping a lot of benefits without as many of the drawbacks? I’m sure the view is pretty sweet from the upper ranks.
Author :- Laura Gems
Wow. My experience was completely different. I attended the Landmark Forum and had many positive results in my life due to the things I learned. My income increased 400% because I finally realized what part of me was holding myself back. I also created much more enriching relationships. My husband attended with me as well. He was incredibly skeptical, but found that the seminar propelled him into a career he wanted and he repaired the relationship with his brother who he hadn’t spoken to for seven years. So all in all, I found the ability to broaden my perspective and see things from a different angle has helped me in all areas of my life. I took the seminar 3 years ago and still use the things I learned every single day.
Author :- jacklene
I have a feeling some of the people posting are Landmark sales plants
Author :- Julia Cook
“I have a feeling some of the people posting are Landmark sales plants” <——-This is the kind of baseless remark people like you say to marginalize any view that does not spotlessly conform to your point of view. Please provide evidence for your speculation.
Author :- Camila Fisher
The evidence for my speculation is in my gut feeling.
Author :- Anna jane
It makes me sad that you had such a negative experience with this because I volunteer for an organization that does seminars with a similar structure but minus the culty brainwashing you-don’t-get-to-think-for-yourself aspects. Its companies like Landmark that give Pathways a bad rap and prevent so many people from trying out our seminars. We too are encouraged to “sponsor” and it feels totally opposite from trying to sell it to other people so the company can make money. The owner of Pathways is practically related to me and its built from her blood sweat and tears with only two other employees. One thing she always tells people when they say it sounds like a cult is “no honey, a cult tries to steal your allegiance,remove your individuality and strip away your voice, and the purpose of pathways is to help you find your voice and bring you closer to the people you love.” The facilitators would NEVER interrupt you or refuse to hear what you have to say. Anyway, again im sorry you had such a horrible experience but i hope you keep an open mind and dont lump all “self help” seminars together as cults.
Author :- Ariana Bell
I also want to mention that Pathways has no religious overtones whatsoever. You are provided a notebook and pen to take notes. And they allow coffee in all seriousness, after reading so many comments about people who have ‘lost friends’ to landmark, i am much closer now with many friends and family members after attending pathways, especially my dad and stepmom, some of whom have attended and some of whom have not.
Author :- Ariana Bell
Becky, do you know what those little red numbers after your posts mean? They mean, we don’t buy it, not one bit.
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
I’m just sorry people are so quick to attack me for simply trying to show another side of the story. If people want to downvote me because I’m trying to share my experience, then that’s fine, although saddening. I wish people would do a bit more research and listen to other opinions before they make up their mind that something is horrible and evil. (And I’m talking about a completely different organization than Landmark! It’s not even the same thing, and yet people still refuse to consider another point of view and automatically claim that I’m full of BS.)
Author :- Ariana Bell
If Pathways is so different why did you bring it up? This article is about the author’s experience with Landmark, not Pathways, she never mentioned Pathways at all. Why are you so defensive about your sea org… oops sorry, I mean organization?
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
It has a similar structure, so I brought it up to compare and show that although they are similar in some ways, they are vastly different in many other ways, to try to bring another point of view to the table. Obviously you are vehemently opposed to opening your mind to a point of view different than your own, so I don’t think I can continue to have a conversation with you.
Author :- Ariana Bell
“Obviously you are vehemently opposed to opening your mind to a point of view different than your own, so I don’t think I can continue to have a conversation with you.”
Hmm, that sounds awfully familiar. Would you also say that she “Refuses to open her mind to new experiences?”
Author :- Nevaeh
bingo
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
You’re going to try to use that to incriminate me? It’s not like that phrase is used exclusively by brainwashing cults. Yes, I’d say being open to new experiences and other points of view is a good quality to have as a human being. I’m not trying to force anyone to go to one of these things. If it’s not for you, then don’t go. All I’m saying is stop judging those of us who have and have had positive experiences from it.
Author :- Ariana Bell
“Incriminate?” Now you really do sound like a Scientologist. And I’ll judge you as much as I want to, just as you judge me. That way, we both get to feel superior.
Good luck with your creepy cult
Author :- Nevaeh
I did this Landmark Forum course, and I didn’t have this kind of experience at all. It seemed a straightforward self-help type course, and one I found pretty valuable too. The coach/leader was very honest, but I didn’t find them to be even slightly scary or abusive.
In fact, I found the idea that we make decisions about life at an early age and then forget we did that, and that this limits us later in life – I became much closer to my mother afterwards, out of realizing that I’d written her off when growing up.
Author :- Johny Patten
May I be the first to say, yeah right.
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
So the only people who can tell the truth about their personal experiences are people who agree with you?
Author :- Stella Wood
Did I stop anyone from “sharing their personal experiences?” I’m not employed by xojane, I don’t have that power. The only power I have is over my own mind, which is firmly made up against cults like Landmark, Scientology and the others.
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
Your mind may be made up and that’s totally fine, but your original comment says that you don’t believe what @stalkinghorse was saying. You can disagree about the validity of Landmark without saying that this person is wrong about their own personal experience.
Author :- Stella Wood
You are correct. I do not believe a word stalkinghorse wrote. But whether or not I believe what he/she is writing has no impact on whether or not they CAN share their experience be it truth or lies. As I said before, I do not have that power, although I am flattered that you seem to think I do.
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
Why are you so quick to invalidate others’ experiences? If the OP’s story is true for her, then stalkinghorse’s story is also true for her.
Author :- Ariana Bell
If stalkinghorse is so strong and magically healed by his/her experience how can anything I write on the web “invalidate” it? Oh wait, unless because of my writing he/she will have to pony up another $1000 for an “extended class” then that would be a good thing right?
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
Healing is not done by magic. It’s done by a lot of hard work, like the work anyone would have to do in private therapy sessions. (Unless you’ve been in therapy, you’d never know how hard, physically, mentally, and emotionally, it really is.) I can’t speak for stalkinghorse, but I know what’s true for me. You are correct in that nothing you write will remove the truth of my experiences because I know my life, and I know it has greatly improved due to the work I did in my seminar and in private therapy sessions, but it’s very inconsiderate and closed-minded to tell someone “Yeah right” when all they are doing is sharing their point of view.
Author :- Ariana Bell
You say that like somehow you think being considerate to manipulative cult members who are actively trying to discredit this author and at the same time suck in new members by preying on readers of xo jane who might be struggling with emotional suffering, is something I care about. Let me assure you I do not.
Author :- Dulcie Tyson
First of all, how are any commenters “preying” on other readers? That makes absolutely no sense. The other comments I’ve read from people who have attended similar seminars are just sharing their experience and defending their point of view, not trying to manipulate anyone else into going. Secondly, you think that myself and other commenters are trying to “discredit” the author’s story, but how is what you’re doing any different? My story, and several other people’s stories, are equally as true as the author’s, yet somehow her story is valid and ours are not?
Author :- Ariana Bell
Your username is just too appropriate.
Author :- Athenides
I agree. I have been affiliated with Landmark for over 2 years after numerous, impressive people in various areas of my life recommended it to me, and I have found the information that they put across to be tremendously helpful. I, too, have repaired relationships with my family that seemed previously irreparable, among many other benefits. There is a *lot* to be gained by being in the Landmark Forum, and being in a ‘coachable’ mindset – ie: willing to drink the kool-aid. By giving up on your criticism of Landmark (it isn’t the holy grail – it’s just a business and it isn’t perfect) and being fully present, you learn things about yourself that you never had access to before. I’m sorry that the author wasn’t willing to do that. While I applaud her willingness to stand up against a crowd – something that does take courage – I just wish she would have given herself over to the experience of being there without the suspicion and judgment. I think something very powerful might have emerged for her had she been there not in the mode of reporter-looking-to-unmask-a-cult.
At first I, too, had a ‘racket’ with their marketing techniques, but when I fully understood what they were offering to people, I dropped that hang-up and invited friends to come, realizing how much they could benefit – potentially in the same ways I did, or more. And if that was the case, and I want to be a loving giving person, why wouldn’t I share this? I even did a home introduction for interested friends even though I was insecure about ‘looking bad’ when I publicized it on my Facebook feed. Some friends were not interested – and that was fine, some friends were – and registered, but either way, I wanted to offer them the same possibility as I had, to enroll and see what was there for them. The two friends of mine who did do the Forum called me afterwards and thanked me. They said it made a very powerful impact on them, and they were ready to take things on in their lives that they had been ignoring for years, and that they, too, had important ‘breakthroughs’. It is easy to have judgment, but for people looking for a powerful experience with their Self, I really encourage them to go and sit there the whole weekend. Yes, it is expensive, and yes, it pushes you into areas well-outside of your comfort zone, but those are the areas where the biggest growth and change is possible. No, you can’t bring coffee or write notes, big deal. Yes, they treat you a bit like kindergarteners, but so what? It isn’t comfortable, that is a fact, but the complete program has the power to change lives. It has had a very positive influence on mine.
Lastly, when I recommend Landmark, I always make it a point to tell people to also register for the Advanced Course, too. This course had the most impact on me. The ones after that are nice, but I really only personally recommend the first two.
Author :- Jane Elle
I don’t think anybody should be encouraged to sit in a room and
endure mockery and verbal abuse to attain enlightenment of any sort.
Sounds like manipulative brainwashing to me.
Author :- Mandy George
Right. “but when I
fully understood what they were offering to people, I dropped that
hang-up” That so sounds like the moment she got suckered.
Author :- Messi Charls
I don’t feel
suckered. I feel like I was putting aside judgment of a marketing tactic
that I didn’t love, for a bigger benefit – helping people I care about
have the same powerful experiences that I had. I’m sold on it, but I
don’t alienate or condemn friends who aren’t interested. Everyone has
what works for them…Vipassana, Yoga, Religion, Running, Gardening…and
Landmark is what did it for me.
Author :- Jane Elle
“I don’t feel suckered.”
Suckers never do. That’s what makes them suckers.
Author :- Nevaeh
In theory I absolutely agree with you. In
practice, it is amazing what a little good-natured teasing can do. We’re
all so attached to our stories and how we see the world. When someone
offers another view, it can easily be labelled mockery or abuse, but
sometimes it has a way of shining a light on places of yourself you’ve
never seen. For instance, I had a story about my sister that I’ve
perpetuated for 25 years. I felt so justified in this story. And when it
was challenged, I realized, with full clarity that – wow – she’s not
the asshole in this story. In reality, I am. Once I saw that, I could no
longer continue perpetua
Author :- Jane Elle
Telling someone they
are responsible for their rape is not good natured teasing. In fact,
I’d say it is more like heinous, sociopathic hatefulness.
Author :- Eileen Grove
it also conveniently encourages the person into submission
Author :- Dyna Marshall
Teasing and not feeling like you can use the bathroom freely are two hugely different things.
In
your eyes, being “coachable” is giving yourself up to “the process”. In
my eyes, it’s giving control (and money) over to others who don’t have
your best interest in mind. It’s just that simple.
I’m sorry, but
this really disgusts me. With our world how it is today- so many people
having trouble financially, emotionally, etc, “businesses” (as you
described Landmark being in a previous comment) like this, that seek to
make money off of other people’s pain is criminal. Those of us who
really want to help others do so willingly, generally without requiring
large sums of money before doing so.
Author :- Lucy East
You are allowed to go
and pee when you want, but it is a curriculum where certain things are
built upon other things and if you miss the fundamentals, you might not
understand things later, thus, you are encouraged to wait for breaks. If
you can’t, you don’t. No one ever blocked my way when I couldn’t.
The
good thing about Landmark is that it is a business. They have a product
(the ‘distinctions’ they offer, some proprietary ‘technology’), and you
pay to be schooled in these distinctions. It isn’t cheap, but it is
normal to exchange currency for a product – and a helluva lot cheaper
than a year’s worth of therapy. Or even two month’s worth, the last time
I checked.
I respect the points you made, and agree that with the
state of the world, we should seek to help one another willingly, but I
reject the characterization that Landmark is there solely to profit off
of people’s pain. I think if you’d ask any person in any center they’d
tell you that they are there to help make a positive impact in people’s
lives – to help relieve them from the pain we carry with ourselves.
Sure, that can sound like some pat, typical-to-cults answer, but I
believe it is true.
The last thing I’ll say is that one of the
hallmarks of cults is their ability to alienate people from those
closest to them. In my case, and in the case of many people I know
personally, our exposure to Landmark has done just the opposite – it has
enabled us to repair relationships with family and friends that we
thought we gave up on years ago. I think that sort of perspective shift
is worth a few hundred bucks, but that’s just me. Others, obviously,
disagree.
Author :- Lucy East
Any therapy I’ve had
is about 60 dollars a session (or free, while I was in school/had
coverage), and I’m allowed to go to the bathroom, drink coffee or leave
after an hour.
Author :- Melissa Hall
Uh, of course
Landmark doesn’t want to alienate you from your family – they want you
to sell Landmark to your family. That would be the pyramid scheme part
of this cult/pyramid scheme.
Author :- Jackline France
“our stories”… you
mean, our LIVED EXPERIENCE? Shouldn’t we be completely justified in our
scepticism towards a “seminar” that tells us that our very perception of
our own lives is wrong? I mean that sends off about a thousand warning
bells in my mind.
Author :- Melissa Hall
Following my lived
experience, i frame what happened with a story about what happened – one
that includes judgments and assumptions, one that highlights what is
convenient for me to highlight and negates that which I don’t want to
look at. I will only speak from personal experience when I say, many of
my ‘stories’ are not clean portrayals of events as they happened.
Landmark’s first distinction is clarifying this. Showing you that what
really happened and what you think really happened are two vastly
different things. It’s actually very philosophical and draws from
existentialism greatly. As much as you need to ‘trust the process’ and
put criticism on pause, it is actually very intellectually challenging
(especially the advanced course) confrontation with one’s Self. INHO
there is no malicious there there. The course is a very powerful
experience that motivates positive change, not this shady cabal that
people make it out to be, at least in my experience. But at the end of
the day, Landmark doesn’t teach you anything you don;t already know (and
they say that at the outset!) – you’re really just paying for the
experience, and if you’re down for the ride, it really does take you
places.
Author :- Jane
Elle
I think it’s irresponsible and dangerous to
tell people their perception is off, that their experience of an event
or a series of events is a “story”. Especially women, who obviously make
up for a large contingent of people going to these “seminars”.
And
the moment I stop thinking critically about events in my life, people I
interact with and the very world around me, is the moment I lose my
agency as a human being.
Cults tend to do that, they strip you of your agency and call it “empowerment”.
There
are many ways to be self reflective and develop insights into yourself,
as well as be constructively critical of yourself that don’t involve
forking over $$$ to a cult.
Author :- Melissa Hall
Word. Also, any organization that relies on low blood sugar to get its “message” across is shady grady.
Author :- Eileen Grove
How are these people
supposed to know “what really happened”? Were they there to witness the
events? No? Then they don’t know “what really happened”.
Also,
perceptions are individual, and unique to the person having them. They
are about lived experience. Therefore, they cannot be “wrong”.
Author :- Eileen Grove
A very important part
of philosophy is ethics and one of the most important ideas in that area
is respect of other people’s autonomy.
Landmark sounds like it ignores this.
Author :- Ciara mark
perpetuate the
status quo, and our relationship was transformed. I don’t think I ever
witnessed anything on the stage that crossed the line though.
Author :- Jane Elle
It sounds like you’re “attached” to “your story” about Landmark. The story thing goes both ways.
Author :- Cindy Bell
This, and the
other replies similar to it, sound exactly like the replies that
Scientologists leave on stories and articles critical of Scientology.
Author :- Johny Gomes
It seems like someone lit up the Landmark Bat Signal so supporters would flock to the comments.
Author :- Sandra Wilson
My thoughts exactly. A team of people just waiting to respond to stuff like this with comments like this.
Author :- Lucy East
Yup, “Wanted to chime
in” is OBVIOUSLY on internet duty today. AS IF any of the smart capable,
and totally unwilling to put up with cult BS readers on XO Jane would
actually listen to his/her ridic defending of this group.
Author :- Jazz Mark
I am aware that
other people have had negative experiences with the company, I just
wanted there to be a voice here of someone who has really gained from
it.
Author :- Jane Elle
Why, exactly? Clearly the
author of this post had a HORRIBLE-not just negative, but
HORRIBLE-experiance, and so did many other people, and you think people
reading the comments should ignore that and be swayed by your happy fun
times?
Author :- Jesica Marshal
Um…you do realize
how bad of a choice of words “drinking the kool aid” is when discussing
whether something is or is not a cult, right? Because that expression
comes from a incident where a cult committed mass suicide by drinking
poisoned kool aid, which is EXACTLY the sort of thing that makes people
afraid of cults and what seem like cults.
Also, as an aside, how was
telling the author that being raped was her fault helping her in any
way, shape or form? Blaming the victim is unacceptable in every and all
situations.
Author :- Georgia Rose
“there is a *lot*
to be gained by being in the Landmark Forum, and being in a ‘coachable’
mindset – ie: willing to drink the kool-aid”
IT IS NEVER OK TO BE
WILLING TO DRINK THE KOOL-AID. Did you forget that the incident that
line is based on ended in, you know, A MASS SUICIDE?!
Author :- Dyna Brown
soooo people can’t be fully present if they have criticism of Landmark? sounds like bs…..
Author :- Jenifer
I was present and was
critical, too. I walked out once when things happened that I didn’t
agree with, but I came back ultimately because I was paying for an
experience – a confrontation with myself. All I’m saying is that if
you’re spending time and energy getting pissy cause you can’t take notes
or drink coffee, you’re not really focused on the things that matter
that weekend.
Author :- Jane Elle
“I came back because I was paying for an experience.” That kind of says it all.
Author :- Violet Wright
Those are very
reasonable things to get upset about. If people are refusing to treat
you like an autonomous adult who can make basic decisions about your own
body and actions, that’s a really bad sign. Even if the message was
ultimately life-changing in a good way, the initiation process would
absolutely be terrible enough on its own to warrant severe criticism.
Author :- Maria
Slave to the wage, man.
Author :- Joslyn East
I have been completely brainwashed. Come join us
Author :- Cassie Thomson
“gooble gobble gooble gobble, one of us, one of us”…
Author :- Jesica Marshal
Gross. This would only
barely be believable if you hadn’t tried to sell it at the end, but that
really put the nail in the coffin. Disgusted by brainwashing and
promotional sales.
Author :- Anne
IKR! Thankfully due to the 80 down votes it seems clear no one is buying their shite.
Author :- Jazz Mark
This was my experience
as well. The seminar was very helpful to me and made a big difference in
how I view myself. And I haven’t divorced my husband or started working
for lululemon
Author :- Justine Dakin
Wow-thanks for taking my
personal account of my lost friendship and making a joke out of it. I
never said any of it as a blanket statement about people involved with
Landmark. I did find similarities once I started reading about it with
other people who lost friends without explanation after they got into
it.
There really is no reason for you to be nasty or make fun of my personal account.
Author :- Mary Turner
Ugh, I can’t even deal
with her comment. I need to step away from this situation for awhile,
because it’s making me really fucking angry.
@Lucy East, you sound
like you were a wonderful friend to her, and you don’t deserve the
treatment you got in return. I sincerely hope you have others in your
life who give you the respect and appreciation you obviously deserve.
Author :- Lucy East
I am sorry, Lucy East. I
absolutely did not intend to make fun of you. I think I was just trying
to communicate to much with too few words. Really, I meant to
communicate that I haven’t done anything since i went to the landmark
forum that my friends think was really weird or out of character. I also
thought that making it a bit jokey would help communicate that I am not
all offended that nearly everyone commenting on this post probably
thinks that I am either brainwashed or lying.
So, in conclusion, I will try to use an adequate amount of words in the future, and I am really sorry that you lost a friend.
Author :- Justine Dakin
Thank you for apologizing. It hurt to see the two defining points of my story as your response.
It’s
great that you had a positive experience. I think she is having a
positive experience as well. It just hurt to be one of the ones cut out
so abruptly and I felt the need to share that side of it.
Author :- Lucy East
I just re-watched The Stepford Wives the other day. Not sure why I’m suddenly thinking of that movie…
Author :- Jesica Marshal
It probably hasn’t
made a difference in how others view you, though. I don’t even know you,
but I suspect that you are insufferable.
Author :- Eileen Grove
hmm. I am familiar
with this course and did a few otther seminars in the early 2000′s. I
can relate to some of it, but for the most part this article really
seems exagerated.
Author :- Hayley Taylor
It’s not. It’s on par with any other description of it I’ve ever read, including my own mother’s account.
Author :- Melissa Hall
How exactly can this
be exaggerated when she is speaking from her own personal experience
about the things she actually experienced? Maybe you shouldn’t be so
dismissive about someone sharing her own lived experiences with
Landmark. It’s rude. Your experiences were your experiences, but hers
and hers. Should she doubt her own perception of her lived experience?
Suggesting she is “exaggerating” is just a fancy way of calling her a
liar.
Author :- Eileen Grove
be happy enjoy the ride
Author :- Phillips Martin
READING YOUR story i can see why you divorce .you love to focuse on the negative of life
Author :- Phillips Martin
LOL, you seem like a loser in life. Keep letting others control you.
Author :- Addison
anything you focuse on becomes
reality
Author :- Eileen Grove
So little kids with cancer made it happen? Ohhkay.
Author :- Rosy
labelling the starting of a
‘habitual pattern’ of ‘complaint’ as a problem denies the truth of the
complaint and the need for change… making a pattern of repeatedly
denying the need for change and to agree to be overpowered by another is
creating yourself to be ‘compliant’.
so the racket of the landmark
‘game’ has a ‘court’ where you are judged and is built upon error.
judgement is ‘thought with error present’ and thus denial. denial holds
away truth. denial is what we need to heal. encouraging denial is the
opposite of healing; ‘shut this person up’ is denial. being authentic is
healing.
thanks for being you
beyoutofull
Author :- Jordan Adams
This is so
inaccurate. Actually I think you chose victim over power. Landmark does
not ever use the word fault in language. What they will invite you to
see is that you can choose how you saw your rape and what you decided it
meant. Never your fault. Always your choice. When we give up the victim
we have freedom, you had the choice to leave and the choice to listen
to sales pitches and the choice to speak up your mind. I have been in
several landmark seminars, it is not for everyone and it I have never
felt pushed because I am not a victim. I always say no powerfully or yes
powerfully, I always have the freedom to walk out with my own two legs.
I am sorry about your experiences, I can tell you that I have my own. I
chose not to get into them and what I made them out to be are
opportunities for forgiveness and for me to grow and accept every part
of myself and others. Thank you for your sharing.
Author :- Stella
I completed life curriculum in
landmark and has been in scientology for 6 years, I don’t attend or
practice any of them anymore, my move was due to my loneliness and
frustration of my sons using drugs, The foundation of these two
organizations are based on lack of self love, lack of power of say NO
and Codependent characters, Since then, I found 12 step programs such as
Al-anon and CODA which acts as support group and costs nothings as a
mean of getting group support as well as self improvement.
Author :- Jack
I attended the Landmark Forum just because my company thought that it would help me enhance my performance and also paid for the program. I did not mind attending the program because I am losing nothing, paid leave to attend the program, fee for the course paid by the company so there was nothing to stop me. So I attended the program without any great expectations. It has to be admitted that whether you are expecting a great change or not, if you are going to sit in there the whole time, you are certain to benefit from the program in some way.
Author :- Rock Edwards
I think I certainly got the best value for money. I have been fighting certain inhibitions of mine for so many years but without much success. I attended the program after one of my friends referred me the program. My friend had already attended this program the previous year and found it helpful. She recommended this based on her experience. I attended the entire workshop with great focus. I wanted to change, I wanted to make sure that I found the key to the issues that I have been facing. I must say, it was worth the efforts. I found really relieved and I am able to deal most of my personal issues, which I used to run away from. I do not run away from my limitations, I have learnt to accept them and work on them. Thanks to the strength given by the Landmark Forum bestowed upon me.
Author :- Rony Frank
The faculties at the Landmark Education were really helpful. They knew their subject and they knew how to handle our questions and provide us with satisfactory responses. The entire program was very lively and I enjoyed the program thoroughly. The program was fun but at the same time, it was powerful. I liked the blend. Worth the time and money spent.
Author :- Grace Lopez
Initially, I was not sure whether the Landmark Education program was worth the money I paid. I had no other choice but to check it out myself. Thankfully, I was not disappointed with the entire course. I was not only able to meet people from various backgrounds but I have also learnt to be a leader. The program gave me alternative approach to the issues that I was facing by allowing me to see the issues from a better, more objective perspective. Thanks to Landmark Forum for the many life changing insights that I received from this program.
Author :-Cristal Walker
When I told that I have signed up for Landmark Forum flagship program, some of my friends discouraged me. Some of them even asked me to get a refund, but all these made me only even more curious. I wanted to check it out myself, why this course has received such diverse response. I thanked myself for letting myself try the program. This might be a personal view but that is enough for me, I am very satisfied with the program and I will not stop anyone from attending this program. I think it is up to the individual on what to make out of this program. In my batch itself, I found two types of people if not more, those who were ready to listen to the good things that came their way and those who were pretty much closed to new ideas. I was open to new ideas and new thinking so I found it useful.
Author :-Ashley East